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Fwd: Chomski despre evenimentele din America
Salut,
Urmatorul text este un interviu dat de Chomski la unul din posturile de
radio alternativ din Belgrad (cel care era sa fie interzis in ultimul an al
regimului Milosevici pentru ca sustine opozitia). Interviul contine o
analiza a evenimentelor de acum doua saptamani din America si a
implicatiilor lor. Il trimit pentru ca Gigi a intrebat azi daca nimeni nu
vrea sa discute despre ce s-a intamplat in ultimul timp (banuiesc ca la asta
se referea). Ma gandesc ca interviul asta poate folosi ca punct de plecare
intr-o eventuala discutie. In sfarsit, imi cer scuze pentru ca textul nu
este editat cum trebuie (eu l-am primit asa ca forward la a nu stiu cata
mana si mi-a fost lene sa il editez eu mai bine).
Silviu
> > > > Interviewing Chomsky
> > > >
> > > Radio
> > > > B92, Belgrade
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why do you think these attacks happened?
> > > >
> > > > To answer the question we must first identify the
> > > > perpetrators of the crimes. It is generally assumed, plausibly, that
>their
> > > > origin is the Middle East region, and that the attacks probably
>trace
> > > back
> > > > to the Osama Bin Laden network, a widespread and complex
>organization,
> > > > doubtless inspired by Bin Laden but not necessarily acting under his
> > > > control. Let us assume that this is true. Then to answer your
>question a
> > > > sensible person would try to ascertain Bin Laden's views, and the
> > > > sentiments of the large reservoir of supporters he has throughout
>the
> > > > region. About all of this, we have a
> > > > great deal of information. Bin Laden has been
>interviewed
> > > > extensively over the years by highly reliable Middle East
>specialists,
> > > > notably the most
> > > > eminent correspondent in the region, Robert Fisk
>(London
> > > > _Independent_), who has intimate knowledge of the entire region and
>direct
> > > > experience over decades. A Saudi Arabian millionaire,
>Bin
> > > > Laden became a militant Islamic leader in the war to drive the
>Russians
> > > out
> > > > of
> > > > Afghanistan. He was one of the many religious
> > > fundamentalist
> > > > extremists recruited, armed, and financed by the CIA and their
>allies in
> > > > Pakistani
> > > > intelligence to cause maximal harm to the Russians --
>quite
> > > > possibly delaying their withdrawal, many analysts suspect -- though
> > > whether
> > > > he
> > > > personally happened to have direct contact with the
>CIA
>is
> > > > unclear, and not particularly important. Not surprisingly, the CIA
> > > > preferred the most
> > > > fanatic and cruel fighters they could mobilize. The
>end
> > > > result was to "destroy a moderate regime and create a fanatical one,
>from
> > > > groups
> > > > recklessly financed by the Americans" (_London Times_
> > > > correspondent Simon Jenkins, also a specialist on the region). These
> > > > "Afghanis" as
> > > > they are called (many, like Bin Laden, not from
> > > Afghanistan)
> > > > carried out terror operations across the border in Russia, but they
> > > > terminated these
> > > > after Russia withdrew. Their war was not against
>Russia,
> > > > which they despise, but against the Russian occupation and Russia's
>crimes
> > > > against
> > > > Muslims.
> > > >
> > > > The "Afghanis" did not terminate their activities,
>however.
> > > > They joined Bosnian Muslim forces in the Balkan Wars; the US did not
> > > > object, just as it
> > > > tolerated Iranian support for them, for complex
>reasons
> > > that
> > > > we need not pursue here, apart from noting that concern for the grim
>fate
> > > > of the
> > > > Bosnians was not prominent among them. The "Afghanis"
>are
> > > > also fighting the Russians in Chechnya, and, quite possibly, are
>involved
> > > in
> > > > carrying out terrorist attacks in Moscow and
>elsewhere in
> > > > Russian territory. Bin Laden and his "Afghanis" turned against the
>US in
> > > > 1990 when
> > > > they established permanent bases in Saudi Arabia --
>from
> > > his
> > > > point of view, a counterpart to the Russian occupation of
>Afghanistan,
>but
> > > > far more
> > > > significant because of Saudi Arabia's special status
>as
>the
> > > > guardian of the holiest shrines.
> > > >
> > > > Bin Laden is also bitterly opposed to the corrupt and
> > > > repressive regimes of the region, which he regards as "un-Islamic,"
> > > > including the Saudi
> > > > Arabian regime, the most extreme Islamic
>fundamentalist
> > > > regime in the world, apart from the Taliban, and a close US ally
>since
>its
> > > > origins. Bin
> > > > Laden despises the US for its support of these
>regimes.
> > > Like
> > > > others in the region, he is also outraged by long-standing US
>support
>for
> > > > Israel's
> > > > brutal military occupation, now in its 35th year:
> > > > Washington's decisive diplomatic, military, and economic
>intervention in
> > > > support of the killings, the
> > > > harsh and destructive siege over many years, the
>daily
> > > > humiliation to which Palestinians are subjected, the expanding
>settlements
> > > > designed to
> > > > break the occupied territories into Bantustan-like
>cantons
> > > > and take control of the resources, the gross violation of the Geneva
> > > > Conventions, and
> > > > other actions that are recognized as crimes
>throughout
>most
> > > > of the world, apart from the US, which has prime responsibility for
>them.
> > > > And like
> > > > others, he contrasts Washington's dedicated support
>for
> > > these
> > > > crimes with the decade-long US-British assault against the civilian
> > > > population of
> > > > Iraq, which has devastated the society and caused
>hundreds
> > > of
> > > > thousands of deaths while strengthening Saddam Hussein -- who was a
> > > favored
> > > > friend and ally of the US and Britain right through
>his
> > > worst
> > > > atrocities, including the gassing of the Kurds, as people of the
>region
> > > > also remember
> > > > well, even if Westerners prefer to forget the facts.
>These
> > > > sentiments are very widely shared. The _Wall Street Journal_ (Sept.
>14)
> > > > published a
> > > > survey of opinions of wealthy and privileged Muslims
>in
>the
> > > > Gulf region (bankers, professionals, businessmen with close links to
>the
> > > > U.S.). They
> > > > expressed much the same views: resentment of the U.S.
> > > > policies of supporting Israeli crimes and blocking the international
> > > > consensus on a
> > > > diplomatic settlement for many years while
>devastating
> > > Iraqi
> > > > civilian society, supporting harsh and repressive anti-democratic
>regimes
> > > > throughout the region, and imposing barriers against
> > > economic
> > > > development by "propping up oppressive regimes." Among the great
>majority
> > > of
> > > > people suffering deep poverty and oppression, similar
> > > > sentiments are far more bitter, and are the source of the fury and
>despair
> > > > that has led to
> > > > suicide bombings, as commonly understood by those who
>are
> > > > interested in the facts.
> > > >
> > > > The U.S., and much of the West, prefers a more
>comforting
> > > > story. To quote the lead analysis in the _New York Times_ (Sept.
>16),
>the
> > > > perpetrators
> > > > acted out of "hatred for the values cherished in the
>West
> > > as
> > > > freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious pluralism and universal
> > > > suffrage." U.S.
> > > > actions are irrelevant, and therefore need not even
>be
> > > > mentioned (Serge Schmemann). This is a convenient picture, and the
>general
> > > > stance is not
> > > > unfamiliar in intellectual history; in fact, it is
>close
>to
> > > > the norm. It happens to be completely at variance with everything we
>know,
> > > > but has all the
> > > > merits of self-adulation and uncritical support for
>power.
> > > >
> > > > It is also widely recognized that Bin Laden and
>others
>like
> > > > him are praying for "a great assault on Muslim states," which will
>cause
> > > > "fanatics to
> > > > flock to his cause" (Jenkins, and many others.). That
>too
> > > is
> > > > familiar. The escalating cycle of violence is typically welcomed by
>the
> > > > harshest and
> > > > most brutal elements on both sides, a fact evident
>enough
> > > > from the recent history of the Balkans, to cite only one of many
>cases.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What consequences will they have on US inner policy and to
>the
> > > > American self reception?
> > > >
> > > > US policy has already been officially announced. The
>world
> > > is
> > > > being offered a "stark choice": join us, or "face the certain
>prospect
>of
> > > > death and
> > > > destruction." Congress has authorized the use of
>force
> > > > against any individuals or countries the President determines to be
> > > > involved in the attacks,
> > > > a doctrine that every supporter regards as ultra-
>criminal.
> > > > That is easily demonstrated. Simply ask how the same people would
>have
> > > > reacted if
> > > > Nicaragua had adopted this doctrine after the U.S.
>had
> > > > rejected the orders of the World Court to terminate its "unlawful
>use of
> > > > force" against
> > > > Nicaragua and had vetoed a Security Council
>resolution
> > > > calling on all states to observe international law. And that
>terrorist
> > > > attack was far more
> > > > severe and destructive even than this atrocity.
> > > >
> > > > As for how these matters are perceived here, that is
>far
> > > more
> > > > complex. One should bear in mind that the media and the intellectual
> > > elites
> > > > generally have their particular agendas. Furthermore,
>the
> > > > answer to this question is, in significant measure, a matter of
>decision:
> > > > as in many
> > > > other cases, with sufficient dedication and energy,
>efforts
> > > > to stimulate fanaticism, blind hatred, and submission to authority
>can
>be
> > > > reversed. We
> > > > all know that very well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Do you expect U.S. to profoundly change their policy to the
>rest
> > > of
> > > > the world?
> > > >
> > > > The initial response was to call for intensifying the
> > > > policies that led to the fury and resentment that provides the
>background
> > > > of support for the
> > > > terrorist attack, and to pursue more intensively the
>agenda
> > > > of the most hard line elements of the leadership: increased
> > > militarization,
> > > > domestic
> > > > regimentation, attack on social programs. That is all
>to
>be
> > > > expected. Again, terror attacks, and the escalating cycle of
>violence
>they
> > > > often
> > > > engender, tend to reinforce the authority and
>prestige of
> > > the
> > > > most harsh and repressive elements of a society. But there is
>nothing
> > > > inevitable
> > > > about submission to this course.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > After the first shock, came fear of what the U.S. answer is
>going
> > > to
> > > > be. Are you afraid, too?
> > > >
> > > > Every sane person should be afraid of the likely
> > > reaction --
> > > > the one that has already been announced, the one that probably
>answers
>Bin
> > > > Laden's
> > > > prayers. It is highly likely to escalate the cycle of
> > > > violence, in the familiar way, but in this case on a far greater
>scale.
> > > >
> > > > The U.S. has already demanded that Pakistan terminate
>the
> > > > food and other supplies that are keeping at least some of the
>starving
>and
> > > > suffering
> > > > people of Afghanistan alive. If that demand is
>implemented,
> > > > unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest connection to
> > > terrorism
> > > > will
> > > > die, possibly millions. Let me repeat: the U.S. has
> > > demanded
> > > > that Pakistan kill possibly millions of people who are themselves
>victims
> > > > of the
> > > > Taliban. This has nothing to do even with revenge. It
>is
>at
> > > a
> > > > far lower moral level even than that. The significance is heightened
>by
> > > the
> > > > fact that this
> > > > is mentioned in passing, with no comment, and
>probably
>will
> > > > hardly be noticed. We can learn a great deal about the moral level
>of
>the
> > > > reigning
> > > > intellectual culture of the West by observing the
>reaction
> > > to
> > > > this demand. I think we can be reasonably confident that if the
>American
> > > > population
> > > > had the slightest idea of what is being done in their
>name,
> > > > they would be utterly appalled. It would be instructive to seek
>historical
> > > > precedents.
> > > >
> > > > If Pakistan does not agree to this and other U.S.
>demands,
> > > it
> > > > may come under direct attack as well -- with unknown consequences.
>If
> > > > Pakistan
> > > > does submit to U.S. demands, it is not impossible
>that
>the
> > > > government will be overthrown by forces much like the Taliban -- who
>in
> > > > this case will
> > > > have nuclear weapons. That could have an effect
>throughout
> > > > the region, including the oil producing states. At this point we are
> > > > considering the
> > > > possibility of a war that may destroy much of human
> > > society.
> > > >
> > > > Even without pursuing such possibilities, the
>likelihood
>is
> > > > that an attack on Afghans will have pretty much the effect that most
> > > > analysts expect: it
> > > > will enlist great numbers of others to support of Bin
> > > Laden,
> > > > as he hopes. Even if he is killed, it will make little difference.
>His
> > > > voice will be heard on
> > > > cassettes that are distributed throughout the Islamic
> > > world,
> > > > and he is likely to be revered as a martyr, inspiring others. It is
>worth
> > > > bearing in mind
> > > > that one suicide bombing -- a truck driven into a
>U.S.
> > > > military base -- drove the world's major military force out of
>Lebanon
>20
> > > > years ago. The
> > > > opportunities for such attacks are endless. And
>suicide
> > > > attacks are very hard to prevent.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "The world will never be the same after 11.09.01". Do you
>think
> > > so?
> > > >
> > > > The horrendous terrorist attacks on Tuesday are
>something
> > > > quite new in world affairs, not in their scale and character, but in
>the
> > > > target. For the
> > > > US, this is the first time since the War of 1812 that
>its
> > > > national territory has been under attack, even threat. It's colonies
>have
> > > > been attacked, but
> > > > not the national territory itself. During these years
>the
> > > US
> > > > virtually exterminated the indigenous population, conquered half of
> > > Mexico,
> > > > intervened
> > > > violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii
>and
> > > the
> > > > Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the
>past
> > > > half century
> > > > particularly, extended its resort to force throughout
>much
> > > of
> > > > the world. The number of victims is colossal. For the first time,
>the
>guns
> > > > have been
> > > > directed the other way. The same is true, even more
> > > > dramatically, of Europe. Europe has suffered murderous destruction,
>but
> > > > from internal wars,
> > > > meanwhile conquering much of the world with extreme
> > > > brutality. It has not been under attack by its victims outside, with
>rare
> > > > exceptions (the IRA in
> > > > England, for example). It is therefore natural that
>NATO
> > > > should rally to the support of the US; hundreds of years of imperial
> > > > violence have an
> > > > enormous impact on the intellectual and moral
>culture.
> > > >
> > > > It is correct to say that this is a novel event in
>world
> > > > history, not because of the scale of the atrocity -- regrettably --
>but
> > > > because of the target. How
> > > > the West chooses to react is a matter of supreme
> > > importance.
> > > > If the rich and powerful choose to keep to their traditions of
>hundreds
>of
> > > > years and
> > > > resort to extreme violence, they will contribute to
>the
> > > > escalation of a cycle of violence, in a familiar dynamic, with
>long-term
> > > > consequences that
> > > > could be awesome. Of course, that is by no means
> > > inevitable.
> > > > An aroused public within the more free and democratic societies can
>direct
> > > > policies towards a much more humane and honorable
>course.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > clac mailing list
> > > > clac@mail.lsit.ucsb.edu
> > > > https://mail.lsit.ucsb.edu/mailman/listinfo.cgi/clac
> > > >
> >
>
>
>
>--
>
>
>
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